Who do you call when you have a problem with your PC? Plus we talk about some incredible title work, Arnold updates, and the new training coming to Greyscalegorilla Plus.
Links - http://bit.ly/2MiYgBf
October 31, 2019 is your last chance to get Greyscalegorilla Plus introductory pricing
Welcome Todd Blankenship to Greyscalegorilla
Andy Needham R21 Podcast
Amador Valenzuela John Wick 3 Podcast
3D Design and Motion Tour - Use code GSG3DMT and get 25% off tickets
Half Rez 8 Titles by Boxfort
Blend Titles by Gunner
School of Motion Manifesto
PC Issues with ENERMAX Liquid Cooling System
Modern Surface Material Collection
Greyscalegorilla Plus - Intro Pricing Ends October 31, 2019
Changing the Color of Textures Tutorial
Plus - 'Procedural Systems,' Everyday Material Collection, and Houdini training
Which renderer is right for you?
Arnold CPU and GPU
Nick Campbell: 00:00 In today's podcast, we discuss my latest PC problems, some motion design events we all visited and the future of Greyscalegorilla Plus. And hey, speaking about Greyscalegorilla Plus, I wanted to let you guys know before we get started on the podcast that October 31st is the last day to get Greyscalegorilla Plus at its introductory pricing. Go check out the site. We'll have an all new offering including our new material pack. Go check it out before October 31st. And now on with the show.
Nick Campbell: 00:27 Hey everybody and welcome to another Greyscalegorilla podcast. It has been too long and uh, with me today we have Chad Ashley, how are you sir?
Chad Ashley: 00:38 Doing good. How about yourself?
Nick Campbell: 00:40 Oh, feeling good man. Uh, I'm uh, I'm going to introduce the next guy here. Get ready to introduce Michael Maher. How are you?
Michael Maher: 00:48 Oh, I'm so happy guys. I'm wearing a hoodie right now. It feels so nice.
Nick Campbell: 00:52 What hoodie weather in Texas? Come on. What, when does that happen?
Michael Maher: 00:55 Uh, not very often. I'm enjoying while I can.
Chad Ashley: 00:58 It's only 85 degrees there.
Nick Campbell: 01:00 Hey, get the, um, get the siren ready. Get the, get the fog horn ready. Is a fog horn or is it DJ horn? Get it ready.
Michael Maher: 01:07 I think it's an air horn.
Nick Campbell: 01:08 Because I want to introduce a new member to Greyscalegorilla and to the podcast. Please give it up and get the foghorns up for Todd Blankenship. How are you, good sir?
Todd : 01:18 Hey.
New Speaker: 01:19 *Air horn noises*.
Todd : 01:19 Oh, there it is. Lovely welcome. Thank you sir.
Nick Campbell: 01:24 Welcome to the podcast. Todd, we're going to talk more about uh, kind of what you've been up to here at Greyscalegorilla. We're so excited to have you. Um, but first, welcome to the podcast.
Todd : 01:33 Thank you.
Nick Campbell: 01:33 How are you?
Todd : 01:34 I'm great. I live near Mike, so it's nice to be able to go outside and not be punished immediately. It's nice out and yeah.
Nick Campbell: 01:42 So tell me, what is hoodie weather in Texas? What, what? Give me some numbers here.
Todd : 01:46 What do you think Mike? Like 95 degrees.
Michael Maher: 01:48 Oh yeah, easy.
Todd : 01:50 You always, you take whatever excuse you can to put on a hoodie around here. But yeah, actually like right now it's like 72 degrees out so.
Chad Ashley: 01:57 Yeah, that's super nice.
Todd : 01:59 I like stood outside, drink my coffee a little bit this morning. And I was like, Oh man, this is, this is what life is supposed to be like.
Chad Ashley: 02:06 Yeah.
Nick Campbell: 02:07 Oh love it.
Chad Ashley: 02:07 How long, how cold does it get in Texas? In the winter?
Todd : 02:11 Hmm. It can actually get pretty cold. I mean, will it threatens to snow at least once or twice a year?
Michael Maher: 02:18 Yeah, we get ice, but that's mostly it. Not like beautiful snow. Just gross ice.
Chad Ashley: 02:24 How do you survive?
Todd : 02:27 And everyone crashes their car. It's great.
Nick Campbell: 02:30 All right, so look a lot going on and um, it's been a long time. We, we've put out some podcasts but we haven't done one of these group podcasts. Mike, why don't you, uh, talk about some of the other podcasts we put out because, uh, if, if those of you listening out there haven't heard them, um, they're really awesome interviews that, uh, that we put out. Mike, why don't you tell us a little bit more about those?
Michael Maher: 02:51 Yeah. So we mentioned this in a, in a past episode where you're going to start seeing some more of this show, kind of delve into new topics. And things like that. And a big part of that is interviewing a lot of popular 3D artists, motion designers, people in the industry. Um, we've released a few of these, so if you remember last time we talked about how we were traveling, we'll get to that in a bit about all the shows we've been to. So while we were away, we dropped a podcast with Andy Needham. Uh, we talk about kind of his work. Um, we talked about Cinema 4D R21, and, uh, some of the training that he actually produced for us here at, uh, Greyscalegorilla Plus. And then there's another episode which, uh, is really great if you are a horror fan or an action fan. We talked to, uh, Amador Valanzuela and uh, he talked to Chad about a lot of the feature film titles that he's worked on. Um, including, uh, the latest John Wick, which he actually used a few of our materials and assets in. And a couple of other big movies that, uh, he's worked on with the guys over in Filmograph, which is, uh, which is a great studio over in LA.
Nick Campbell: 04:00 It's a good group over there. Um, so, uh, if you haven't checked those out, those are up on the podcast right now. We're going to have more of those interviews coming soon. I figured what we'll do today is kind of catch up, its been awhile. We've been to a ton of events since the last big podcast. Um, gosh, Oh, everything happened. We had uh Blend Fest. I was over in Vancouver. Um, uh, I could talk a little bit about that. We had Half Rez, we were all in Chicago for that. And there's also the Maxon road show happening right now. They don't call it a road show, what do they call it?
Michael Maher: 04:31 It's the uh 3D Motion and Design tour.
Nick Campbell: 04:34 3D Motion and Design tour. And I've been, uh, uh, quite a few of those events and uh about to do a few more including New York. And those have been extra fun. Uh, Chad. Which ones have you, uh, been to?
Chad Ashley: 04:46 Uh, I did Montreal and Chicago and yeah, they've been great. Those are, there's been a lot of fun.
Nick Campbell: 04:53 Yeah, it's really cool to, uh, so they have these panels and get to kind of hang out on stage and answer questions from the audience. And, um, Matthias runs a really nice little Q&A about kind of where the 3D, um, industry is these days. So it's, um, it's been really a good way to kind of A. Catch up with other artists that are in town. And also, just going to talk about 3D and Cinema 4D in general, so they, they've been, they've been good.
Chad Ashley: 05:19 I've got a funny story about the Montreal one.
Nick Campbell: 05:21 Oh, baby hit me.
Chad Ashley: 05:23 You guys want to hear it?
Michael Maher: 05:24 Do tell.
Chad Ashley: 05:24 Um, so yeah, so the way that the roadshow, I gotta stop saying roadshow, uh, 3D Design and Motion tour. Is that right? Did I say that right?
Nick Campbell: 05:33 I think that's, I think that's close.
Chad Ashley: 05:35 That's close. Anyway. Um, they do a really good job of like starting the session out with sort of an intro, uh, demonstration that Matthias runs and he does this really great job of doing like this extruded logo type thing. And he does some other things with it as well. Um, but actually, no, I think this was in Chicago. This is in the Chicago show. He's up there on stage going through his spiel about, you know, 3D titles and stuff like that. And somebody actually interrupted him during that and raised their hand. And he was like, yes. And the person said, uh, excuse me, aren't 3D titles passe?
New Speaker: 06:17 *laughter*
Chad Ashley: 06:17 And everybody was like what? And like we, we ended up like, I was, I was just, I, this was heaven on earth for me because I just love uncomfortable situations like that. So I'm just staring at Matthias like, what's he going to say? How's he gonna react to this? And he was the consummate professional. He was like, well, you know, we're not going to get into the theories of, of what may or may not be in fashion, but I will say that there are plenty of studios making a living doing 3D titles for movies and blah, blah, blah. He handled it so well. It was amazing.
Nick Campbell: 06:59 Oh my god.
Chad Ashley: 06:59 It was just all we could talk about for the rest of the day was this guy just like grilling, grilling Matthias.
Todd : 07:06 I can imagine. Was there like an audible sound in the room? Like when he said it like everyone just kinda goes like, huuuh
Chad Ashley: 07:11 Yeah, there was like a, not a gasp, but there was like almost like a silence. I think I might've actually started laughing. I don't remember, but I was just like, Oh my God, this is amazing. And afterwards I was like, welcome to Chicago. This is how we do it. Yeah. Just a bunch of jerks in Chicago.
Nick Campbell: 07:30 Especially in Chicago, man. Like that's broadcasts like central man. If there is not a flying logo in Chicago, where is there? Man, that's the, the hub.
Chad Ashley: 07:38 Right?
Chad Ashley: 07:40 I know. And so it was, it was pretty funny. Um, and yeah, Matthias handled it really well.
Nick Campbell: 07:47 Yeah. I gotta say it. Thumbs up to Matthias man. He's running this show. He's, he's obviously got a lot of help in getting it all set up, but he's the one running around going city to city every other day in a new city doing these, meeting people, doing this presentation, running the event, running the Q&A. Um, he's just rocking. He's always been such a great part of that company. It's always cool to see him. I'm excited to, uh, to see more of 'em in the near future. Um, they got uh, eh, yeah. What are the other shows I'm going to be at because this might go out before the next ones.
Nick Campbell: 08:21 That's what I have to go find out. I will get you that answer folks. It's been so busy. I don't even know where I'm going next month, but uh, I'm gonna get
Michael Maher: 08:26 Definitely, definitely New York. Don't forget that one. And I think that's like next week.
Nick Campbell: 08:30 New York is next week. That is um, as we record this a week from now. Uh, and then I want to say Denver is definitely a go and I want to say there's one more I'll find out and try to try to get on uh, on this podcast. So stay tuned. There is a little teaser, they call that one. Um, so what else? We got the road show. We got Half Rez, which was, um, amazing to go to Half Rez and not have to be on stage. That was uh first time, um, in how long, how long has Half Rez been? Eight years. Uh, I was able to go to Half Rez and just enjoy it from the audience perspective and like meet all my, see all my friends in Chicago and see you guys. We had the whole Greyscalegorilla team there. Um, and it was just great to catch up with everybody. Um, any, any, any notes from, from Half Rez. I know that was a few weeks ago.
Michael Maher: 09:17 Yeah, I think that was like Todd's third day.
Todd : 09:20 Yeah, that was my, that was my intro to the company, uh, was going Half Rez. So that was, that was a really, really fun trip for me and that, that event was awesome. Like I really had a good time there.
Nick Campbell: 09:30 Yeah, it was, it was so great to catch up with A. Chicago friends that I just don't get to hang out with as much as I want, but also, um, uh, people that fly in and, and drive into that show, it's just getting bigger and bigger. So it's really nice to just kind of catch up with the, the cinema 4D crowd, the 3D crowd in general. Uh, and then just after that I took off to Blend. Um, now Blend is is something I've heard about a lot. Uh, I don't, I don't think they do it every year. They think it's every other year they do Blend Fest. And you know, because I started all this stuff as like the after effects guy. I've always kind of looked at this Blend thing like, man, I want to go. It was, it felt a little bit more 2D, felt a little bit more focused on like traditional motion graphics. And so, um, I went this year, I was so, uh, I was so excited to go and kind of experience this thing and I was blown away. It was, um, way, I don't know what I quite expected, but it, but it blew my expectations out of the water. It was such a very artist friendly, very thoughtful.
Nick Campbell: 10:36 Um, the presentations were very thoughtful, amazing presentations from studios. And, uh, it was really cool to, um, catch up with, you know, like School of Motion was there, always loved their whole team and catching up with Joey. And then a lot of Chicago friends were there. Got to catch up with my, with my buddies. Um, but also, uh, got to see some amazing presentations. Uh, and a lot of them surprisingly were from Detroit. Detroit seemed to be the big buzz at Blend. And so for those of you who might not know, I know a lot of people think I'm still in Chicago. I'm in, uh, outskirts of Detroit right now, trying to make it down to more of the meetups and, and go kind of learn a little bit more about what's happening in Detroit. And Detroit is having a moment right now.
Nick Campbell: 11:22 It was really cool to see Gunnar there doing presentations, uh, back at Half Rez, uh, Box Fort, uh, and uh, and Julian and, uh, Billy and her crew, uh, Nick, um, were out at Half Rez doing their thing. They're from Detroit. Um, and there's, there's just this like sense of Detroit buzz happening right now that I just got to kind of feel warm, all warm and fuzzy about, cause I'm over here, but, um, I guess it's more of an invitation for you listening to go check out the titles from Blend who is mostly made by Gunnar who's here in Detroit and go check out the titles, uh, for Half Rez this year, um, which, which also came from Detroit. So, uh, just go check those out and see some of the work that's happening here in, in this little city of mine. And um, yeah. So what, uh, what other, what other things happen here at uh Half Rez and these other shows? Any other stories from Half Rez?
Chad Ashley: 12:16 None that we can talk about on the air. Uh, but to go back to the Blend thing, like the Blend titles just completely blew me away.
Nick Campbell: 12:26 They were beautiful.
Chad Ashley: 12:27 They were so, so good. It was like really well done, really fantastical, imaginative, uh, just a great execution. I was really like, wow, that, that's some, that's some really thoughtful animation.
Michael Maher: 12:45 Uh, speaking of, did you also see, um, School of Motion's new titles? They had like a big, uh big article that went out with a new like statement of, of who they are really about their, their movement.
Nick Campbell: 12:58 I think that thing was awesome. I think they're doing such a great job over there. Um, I've, I really, I really love when they, when they put those big mission statements out cause I, I think it helps the entire industry. Like we're all obviously doing online education and, and um, they're, they're absolutely killing it right now. Who did those titles by the way? Those were awesome.
Michael Maher: 13:20 Uh, I think uh, JR Cannist uh, did some of it. I, I don't know if he did the whole thing, but I think his studio
Chad Ashley: 13:26 Yeah his company I think did it.
Michael Maher: 13:28 Yeah, they were so awesome. Great blend of like 2D and 3D and it's just so good.
Todd : 13:34 Yeah. That thing is like, you go through that thing frame by frame, like over and over and over just to see how they did all the various transitions and stuff. It is really impressive.
Chad Ashley: 13:42 Dude. It's better than most client work. I would say that like I'm going to guess and say agencies all over the country are going to be grabbing that and like showing it to people. Like, hey, can we get this? Can you give us this?
Nick Campbell: 13:58 Oh man. Well, I know we have podcast notes somewhere, so if you're listening to this through iTunes, um, maybe head back to the website, we're gonna have some show notes, uh, linking all this stuff. Can we get links to these, um, to these awesome title sequences?
Michael Maher: 14:12 You got it.
Nick Campbell: 14:12 Cause I highly recommend putting these things on the big screen. Turning it up. The sound design on these are awesome as well and just really enjoying them. Like those three titles for those three things we mentioned are, um, some of the best out there right now. So, um, it's, it's awesome. It's great stuff, man. I will definitely be trying to go to Blend again next year. Um, and gosh, what else has been going on? I wanna give you a quick update with, um, uh, my PC because, uh, I've had some issues and, uh, and then we'll talk, um, a little bit more about, um, what the heck Todd's doing here. We still haven't done that, we can, we got a whole show. Let's go do it. Um, so my PC, those of you asking may have seen a video that I recorded, um, a month ago and saw my little iMac in the background and asked many of you very smartly asked where in the heck is your PC. And, um, I'll just give you the, the kind of quick overview. I have been having issues with my, uh, PC since I basically, since I got it. Um, what's, what's frustrating about it is that as a new PC owner, I didn't know that this, if it was just something that all PC owners were, were going through or if I uniquely had like something wrong with my machine and, uh, because, you know, I didn't really have anything else to compare it to. I just kinda thought like, I guess this is just the life of a PC owner is like constant issues with driver updates.
Nick Campbell: 15:45 Um, every once in awhile I would turn my computer on and it would go to like 16 bit like VGA color mode, like maybe 256 colors. And it was very clear that my graphics drivers or something was just borked borked, borked. And sometimes I would show Chad on a call, like Chad showing me a lot about Redshift lately and a little bit about, um, Arnold and I would have a question and he would, I would be screen sharing with him and literally he'd be like, is this your machine? Is this what's happening? Like is my screen recording getting screwed up or is this how slow your machine is? I'm like, no, this is the world I live in. And he's like, something's really wrong. So I did a lot of back and forth with ABA, which I should say has been really great through customer support on the phone.
Nick Campbell: 16:32 Um, but how we did have to end up just shipping it back to them to, to go through the whole machine once again because we couldn't quite solve it through, uh, updating drivers. We couldn't solve it through the basic kind of stuff that was just software-related. So, um, I shipped it over. I was without my machine for a few weeks, which is the ultimate like screw up, right? Like that's the ultimate screw up for this whole PC experiment is like for an artist. If I were to be doing this for living in charging my clients money to get this stuff done and I didn't have my machine for three weeks, that is the ultimate fail. Good news is I had my little iMac back up. Bad news is Redshift does not work on my little iMac very well. Arnold worked a little bit, but that's a different story.
Nick Campbell: 17:21 Um, so why am I telling you all this? Well, I kind of consider it my, the part of me getting this PC is, is partly so I could finally play with these GPU renderers but partly to share my little story with, with those of you out there who are looking to maybe jump into the PC world and some of the, some of the problems with it and some of the benefits of it. So I'll probably get into it in like a longer podcast or maybe even a video describing more about this, but I just want to give you an update that, um, that when things break on a PC, the thing that is the most frustrating part about it right now is that there's really no ultimate company or brand that can look at it and say, we will fix it for you. Maybe there's, maybe there's another way to do that.
Nick Campbell: 18:07 Maybe there's another company we can deal with or I don't know. Maybe I gotta go get a Dell. I don't know the answer to this question, but the fact of the matter is, is that I had a basically broken machine and nobody was willing and or able to really fix it. And when, when it really came down to it, everyone pointed at each other. So, you know, some people said I, it was, it was me, it was my fault. I wasn't updating my drivers properly. Um, some people were saying, Oh, it's the video card's fault. Some people were saying it was ABA fault. Some people were saying it was, um, you know, it was just that I don't know enough about PCs and that's on me. So what was, what was frustrating about it was that I just wanted to sit and do work. And that's mostly what I get to do when, when I'm on my Mac.
Nick Campbell: 18:54 Um, and, and the, the moral, I guess the moral of the story right now is just that I had to send this back and, and not have a computer for three weeks in order to get a working computer. So the good news coming out of all this is I finally have a PC that works. I'm speaking to you right now on my PC that finally flies. The issue they found was that the, uh, water cooler, uh, was apparently a notoriously bad water cooler, notoriously bad water.
Chad Ashley: 19:24 Yeah, I have information on that too, by the way.
Nick Campbell: 19:26 Well, I, okay, I want to hear this information. I want to know why they put a notoriously bad water cooler in my machine first of all, but also like how does this stuff just happen? Like bad parts come along and then we all have to like ship our machines in and get them, you know, redone. Am I having a, a particularly bad experience or is this the life of a PC owner? What are, what are your thoughts here, Chad?
Chad Ashley: 19:48 So I've never, first of all, I have, uh, an ABA machine as well. So two things happened when I got mine. The first one being one of the GPU died, which is fine. Um, that happens. Uh, the unfortunate part was that I too had to ship my machine back to figure out what that was. So that was disappointing, but when I got the machine back, everything was fine. But this cooler, I have the same cooler. It's an Enermax cooler. Uh, it was loud as all hell. So I ended up, uh, replacing all the fans in the cooler with knock to O fans just so that I could get work done and like not hear it in the mic. So I think, um, a story broke a couple days ago, or maybe it was a week ago where these Enermax coolers are failing for everybody. In fact, there there's been some talk of recalls and so I'm waiting for mine who, which hasn't failed as aside from the fans being loud, I'm waiting mine to fail at some point now because these things are just really pretty poorly made from what I'm gathering. So it's, it's, to answer your question, it's not normal. It's not at all. I've never had this happen with any of my other machines before. I've never had to send a machine back before. So it's definitely not normal at all. I think the other thing to remember with your situation to was that you'd never done anything in heavy in the PC world before and you didn't have anybody that you could be like, Hey Chad, come over here and take a look at this. What's going on with this thing? So if you don't have anybody to troubleshoot it with you, um, and you're sort of on your own, that is really hard because I think if I had been there and been able to say, wow, your temperatures are like insanely high, your machines basically shutting down so it doesn't burn itself out.
Nick Campbell: 21:39 Right.
Chad Ashley: 21:39 Like we could've, we could've came to that conclusion earlier and it may have meant that we wouldn't have had to send your machine back in. Cause we could've said, Hey look, the cooler's not doing its job. Oh, okay, well we'll send you a cooler. And then I would have said, well no, I'm not comfortable installing a cooler. You're going to have to have somebody do it or you have to us where you take it to do it.
Michael Maher: 22:01 Yeah. It gets really hard when you go custom and there's no genius bar, like there's no local store for you to just walk up to.
Nick Campbell: 22:08 Yeah, and I think that's what brings me back to this, this, I had my iMac for a couple of weeks there, right? I traveled a little bit in the middle so it was okay, but when I came back to my Mac, I felt the love, like I felt a little bit, it was looking at me sad, like it was a little sad that I left it in the corner for so long, but I instantly was like, okay, screw all this PC thing like it. This is not worth like, okay. Yeah. My formula one car is definitely super fast when it's working, but I need an entire team of people around me to make sure that this thing is humming and as soon as it breaks, it's like 20 engineers need to go jump in and like jack up the tires and, and like fix my analogy.
Nick Campbell: 22:53 And so that's how I thought. I was like, that's fine. I'm going to, I'm going to totally take a speed hit and gladly go get the Toyota Corolla and just drive all day. Cause that's all I want to do. Do not care about my engine. I do not care about how super duper fast everything is running. And I'm going to sit here on my iMac, which is just slow, slow and steady, getting it done, got all my nice little round edges and I'm fine. I felt such um, frustration in, in that moment. Um, now, uh, I'll give you another update after some time, but since then I have a now working PC for the last, uh, let's call it week or two. I think it's about, been about a week and man, I have jumped into Redshift. I took the whole weekend and played with Redshift and just played with all the Chad's, uh, uh, new materials, which we'll talk about here in a second and just loved it. I'm in love with this thing. If it stays like this and I don't have to update all this stuff and send it back and go through this whole headache. And this is just the world that, that I should have lived in for the last year, then I'll hopefully have a different tune. But I did want to share my frustration on the podcast to you guys because in that moment I can, I was picturing myself as a freelancer and just seeing the money fall away as my clients are asking where their renders are. And I literally would have had no answer to them other than to go buy another $10,000 machine. And so again, I just wanted to share and be honest with you guys about my experience with this and kind of get your guys thoughts and Chad your history with this and just kind of give you a little update.
Nick Campbell: 24:34 Hopefully everything's fine moving forward and uh, so much so that we are, are about to add, uh, two more PCs to the Greyscalegorilla lineup.
Michael Maher: 24:48 Yeah.
Chad Ashley: 24:48 Yeah
Michael Maher: 24:49 I don't know if anybody remembers that. Yeah. If anybody remembers that my, uh, my machine kinda died on us during an episode, a couple episodes back. Uh, we finally decided what machine to go with. And then it just happened that Todd was hired about the same time we found our spec. So I think we're both going with, uh, goth boing, ooh goth boing, both going with all the new PCs.
Nick Campbell: 25:14 Woohoo.
Todd : 25:15 I'm kind of like you Nick. Like I come from the Macworld and I have a lot of the same thing. So this is going to be interesting getting kind of comfortable with PC again. Uh, I haven't used one probably since like 2006 so.
Nick Campbell: 25:28 Well let me tell you like as just as a personal thing, if you have any questions at all, please reach out at any time to Chad and
Chad Ashley: 25:37 God.
Nick Campbell: 25:37 he will totally make sure, just kidding, sorry Chad.
Chad Ashley: 25:40 It'll be like taking a call from my dad, like
Michael Maher: 25:45 How do I get the printer to work.
Nick Campbell: 25:47 Yeah, just don't ask me. I have no idea. I this thing, uh, it fires up, it runs Chrome and it runs Cinema 4D and it runs Redshift and, and that's all I cared to do with this thing right now, um.
Chad Ashley: 25:59 Just don't do what Nick did and install like third party driver updaters and malware this.
Nick Campbell: 26:05 I didn't, there not
Todd : 26:05 And like McAfee and like Norton anti-virus on there.
Chad Ashley: 26:09 I'm like, Oh my God, what is happening right now?
Nick Campbell: 26:12 Look-
Chad Ashley: 26:13 Don't do that.
Todd : 26:14 Limewire.
Chad Ashley: 26:18 Installing Winamp and stuff like
Nick Campbell: 26:20 Oh, you gotta get the Winamp skins. What are you talking about? You can't just have a regular Winamp without the new skins, man.
Chad Ashley: 26:26 That's true. You got to get the visualizers going.
Nick Campbell: 26:29 All right, well, um, I'll have more updates soon for those of you who care. I, I did meet quite a few people at the road, not the road show, the 3D tour and people coming up to me and asking me that was like primarily number one question is like, how's the PC going? Should I switch? How's Redshift doing? And so I just wanted to kind of use this moment to, to share a little bit more of that story cause it's, it's an ongoing, it's an ongoing saga. Um, and I'll, I'll give you more updates as it goes, but maybe this is a good time since I got to play with, uh, all these amazing new materials to talk about a little bit more about what's been going on at Greyscalegorilla. We've been, frankly a little little quiet for the last few months. You may have been seeing more stuff about Plus and about all this stuff. And so I wanted to talk, um, a little bit more about that.
Nick Campbell: 27:20 We've been working so hard behind the scenes and I'm not speaking enough to you guys about what is going on. So, um, for those of you who haven't seen, um, let me give you just a quick little little background on Greyscalegorilla, Grayscalegorilla Plus. Why we did this thing and why it's so exciting right now to talk to you about it. And also, um, tell you a little bit more about how Todd fits into this whole puzzle. Um, so, you know, we've been doing training and helping 3D artists for 10 years, right? Like, that was my vision to, you know, literally leave my full time job to sit and teach and learn and make tools to help the 3D artist. Every time I did something twice on my machine, I was frustrated and I wanted to make a tool to speed it up.
Nick Campbell: 28:08 And there was also not enough training out there. So I wanted to solve that part. Well, 10 years later we got, um, obviously hundreds of hours of training. We have all this stuff happening. We have artists that, you know, we that come up to come up to us at every event and say that Greyscalegorilla was a part of their career. And one of the things that everyone's always asking about us about is like more training, you know, helping them at a, at a higher level. All these people that we've helped for 10 years are now working in the industry. They're working in these studios, they're working with teams and they're having questions about all that stuff. And so we started to build Greyscalegorilla guides, uh, on our website to kind of help with that problem, like much higher. Um, like more in depth from teachers, you know, that do this for a living.
Nick Campbell: 28:57 And we started making our guides including our guide X-Particles, guide to Redshift, guide to cinema 4D. And uh, those were awesome. Like those were huge hit. There was one problem with them, which was a lot of artists were asking like, okay, by the time I get two or three of these, it gets kind of expensive. And what I really want is to just have it all. Like I just want to get all the training, not only this stuff, but the new stuff that I know you're coming out with when there's R21 comes out, when Redshift updates come out, like how do I just get everything? And so we listened to a lot of our customers and built what was originally, um, only training. So we built Greyscalegorilla Plus we've been hard at work. The team, uh, many of them are here on this call, had been hard at work behind the scenes building this platform to get Greyscalegorilla Plus out as a, as a training platform for, uh, 3D artists.
Nick Campbell: 29:49 Um, and so we launched it right a couple months ago. We finally had it ready. It's kind of in its early stage, but we wanted to get some early users in there to say like, Hey, this is what we have in mind for the future of Greyscalegorilla training. We want to give you all of it for one affordable price. Come join us, this is going to be huge. And man, it was even bigger than I thought it would, it would like, um, like the word got out quicker than I even thought. And so we had a bunch of people join Greyscalegorilla plus start, you know, learning all this, uh, all this new software, start learning Redshift, start learning X particles. Uh, we dropped the cinema 4D R21 training and we looked at it and we finally came to a moment where like, this is it.
Nick Campbell: 30:36 Like this is the future of how we can help artists. Um, and, and basically every idea that we have, whether it's a, uh, a preset, it's a material, it's uh, an overlay pack. Every idea that we sit here and come up with to try to help an artist get their job done, we can now look at our Greyscalegorilla Plus audience and, and literally offer it to them as a member. And once that happened, the whole thing unlocked. I know in my head, and I know we've talked about this behind the scenes, the ability for us now to just have good ideas and release it into the Greyscalegorilla Plus platform has gotten me so excited on the potential of speeding up 3d work, making it more fun, easier to learn all this new software and just to drop tools. So once that happened, man, we, we cranked up what Plus is, um, uh, we cranked up what the vision of Plus was instantly.
Nick Campbell: 31:41 And so to do that, we did a few things. One is we hired Todd. Hi Todd.
Todd : 31:49 Hi.
Nick Campbell: 31:49 Thank you for joining us.
Todd : 31:51 Yeah.
Nick Campbell: 31:51 Um, so Todd, I wanted to learn, you know, and uh, kind of introduce you to our audience. Todd's been, um, uh, an incredible teacher for years. He's, uh, he's, he's one of us, right? He's part of this entire online learning, um, revolution. And we're excited to bring Todd to head up Greyscalegorilla Plus, and I'm most excited to have him here too, to kind of get the word out about what we're trying to do at Plus because there's so much that we're adding to Plus in the near future. There's so much we've just added in the last week and Todd's going to be a major part of that moving forward. So Todd, I wanted to like, uh, introduce you and also like learn a little bit more about kind of where you came from. How did you originally get into all of this stuff with, with 3d and 2d? How did, how did you end up here I guess?
Todd : 32:44 All right. So, um, yeah, so I'm kind of a, uh, a filmmaker, cinematographer kind of guy who's always been just split right down the middle with that and motion graphic stuff. So I started out right out of high school working at a news station. I did a lot of, you know, graphics and promotional packages for a local CW affiliate and uh, moved on from there. I, I worked for a trailer house for probably about five years there. I cut and did the motion graphics for somewhere around like 300 trailers for a bunch of different brands. Uh, and then I kind of just went into the freelance world for awhile and, um, after that started doing YouTube stuff. So I've been doing, for the last couple of years, I've been doing a lot of, um, YouTube tutorials about, you know, motion graphics, filmmaking. I make a lot of assets and overlay packs and free stuff for, you know, compositing and motion graphics and free, just free stuff for people to download. Uh, so I've been doing a lot of that for the last few years and you know, more than anything, I'm just a dude who probably since, uh, my junior year of high school, I've been following what Greyscalegorilla has been doing. So I'm, I'm super excited to be involved with it now. So this is, uh, this is an exciting time in the life of Todd.
Michael Maher: 33:57 I would also throw in the fact, so Todd and I have also worked together in the past before, and I would guarantee there's a good amount of you listening to this that probably have stumbled upon some of his free downloads and use them in your projects without even knowing. And then he's actually been involved with some of our releases. I know Todd, you came on board, you helped us out with, with our dust bundle and uh area light maps.
Todd : 34:22 Yeah. Yeah. Y'all paid me to take pictures of lights for a couple of days, so that was a nice, nice
Chad Ashley: 34:28 Probably like what am I doing this for? Really weird. What are these? You want me to do what? You guys are crazy.
Todd : 34:32 Uh yeah.
Nick Campbell: 34:35 We're excited to have you, man. And I know we're about to kind of talk a little bit more about what Plus is turning into, um, and you know, kind of where, where it's going, but, uh, you know, you've been here, you've been here, what is it, two weeks now?
Todd : 34:52 I think I'm on my third week.
Nick Campbell: 34:53 Oh my God.
Todd : 34:54 I'm a veteran now.
Nick Campbell: 34:54 You're, yeah, that, you're old school frankly. Um, you know. So, you know, I can sit and talk about how exciting like, Greyscalegorilla Plus is and we've done a lot of that behind the scenes. And I, I think too, just to talk to the audience for another second, like we've been so busy behind the scenes building all this stuff and working on it that we really haven't done a good enough job like turning around and talking to our audience. So that's why I'm excited to have you here, Todd, to like help explain this a little bit more and also, you know, just kinda have the, have the vision with us and make sure that, that our audiences is like, uh, getting everything they need to get their job done. So.
Todd : 35:35 Yeah, I mean, it, it's a lot. There's lot going on with Plus it's, it's, it's changed a lot over the, even the last couple of weeks. And I think, uh, to me, one of the biggest things that we should do is just kind of provide a lot of clarity on what it is and what we plan to do, what's coming. And, um, yeah, I mean to me, to me, I, I kinda, I, I consider that priority number one for myself is just making sure that anyone who's listening to this, uh, if you are a Plus member, if you're not a Plus member, uh, to me it's, it's really important that you, you kinda know what to expect. And, um, yeah, I'm going to be chipping away at that as much as I can over the next couple of weeks.
Nick Campbell: 36:14 Yeah. And I, I think it's important that, you know, even behind the scenes that once we saw the, the, um, the success of Plus, once we saw how our audience was interacting with all this content, we were like, okay, we need to, we need to step this up frankly. Like this experience needs to be, uh, like easier to find things. Um, you know, easier to add things. We have so much stuff coming down the pipeline that we wanted to make sure that it was, that was easy for all sides, for everybody, for us to add stuff, for our audience to find it, um, to go through these lessons and really like integrate this stuff into your workflow cause just watching a video and then saying, Oh, that's cool is, is really not how things are, are how you learn things. Right? It's like watching a guitar video without a guitar in your hand.
Nick Campbell: 37:06 You got to do it and you got to practice it and you got to like integrate it into your work. And so that's why I'm excited to have like all this training that that is easy to follow along with. And we have so much more planning. So like I think we can, I mean shoot, we could tease stuff all we want Todd, but I think, I think it's about time we could tell people like what's coming in Plus.
Todd : 37:28 Yeah.
Nick Campbell: 37:28 I think we can, I know we're working on a video to, to be a little bit louder about that out in the world, but I think we could do it right now. What do you think?
Todd : 37:34 Ok. Yeah, I'm, I'm totally fine with that. So, uh, first off, next week we're going to be dropping. Well are we dropping this podcast this week?
Michael Maher: 37:42 Yeah.
Todd : 37:44 Okay. So next week we're going to have some new training with Zach Corzine. He's going to be teaching us how to do some really epic, uh, like insane looking procedural systems. Uh, basically just these really cool kind of cloth, like photo real sort of cloth renders that he did. Um, you've probably seen that teased in a lot of the, the Greyscalegorilla Plus advertising and stuff. Um, and so you probably notice that if you're a Plus member, you have access to the, uh, Modern Surface Material Collection. Um, yeah.
Nick Campbell: 38:16 Let's talk about that for a second. Cause that's, that's when, when that got unlocked that we're going to take this upcoming material pack that, that Chad, you've been like teasing like you did, you did the best tease with that, with that collection. By the way.
Chad Ashley: 38:32 I'm a tease. What can I say?
Nick Campbell: 38:34 I know and look every render that came out, everyone's like, what just, drop it, drop this. And so as soon as that clicked in our head where we're like, what, what can we do for our Greyscalegorilla Plus members, Oh I know they're going to get our brand new material collection. And as soon as, as soon as that happened in, in the company, I got to say like the, the excitement for Plus and the excitement for other things we're including and Plus like, like tripled. We were already excited about the platform but that's when we were like, okay, this is it. This is going to be incredible. So that came out, was that two weeks ago was the um, the Modern Surface Material collection?
Todd : 39:14 Yeah. Yeah.
Nick Campbell: 39:16 Which I've been using nonstop. I've been using that nonstop. You know what I love about that? I can put in mix and match almost any of those materials. And they always look good together. I've loved that.
Chad Ashley: 39:27 That's the idea.
Nick Campbell: 39:28 Love that thing. Okay.
Todd : 39:29 Good job Chad. Well done.
Chad Ashley: 39:32 Thanks. Yeah, hopefully. We'll uh, we'll be able to, I'd love to talk more about, um, the process and just that entire thinking of how that material collection came to be on another show.
Nick Campbell: 39:44 Yeah. I, I would love that. The idea that they're mix and match and they work well together I think is kind of a new thing when it comes to materials. Like you've made great materials in the Everyday Material Collection. Um, but the fact that I could just like mix and match these and these color palettes, it's been, it's been really fun. And I put that, is it terrazzo? How do you say that?
Chad Ashley: 40:06 (Italian accent) Terrazzo.
Nick Campbell: 40:06 (Italian accent) Terrazzo. You gotta, gotta do the whole accent with it. All right.
Chad Ashley: 40:10 Yeah, you got to, otherwise, you know, it just doesn't sound cool.
Nick Campbell: 40:13 That stuff just looks good. I just put me, I'd been putting that on my, I've been putting that on my breakfast sandwich.
Chad Ashley: 40:20 Yeah. And the other thing to, to note on that too is the, the training component that goes along with that material collection sort of fits right into the, the whole ethos of, of Plus. And, and I think that, um, I was excited to, to put together a material collection that had a strong training component because I don't think that's ever been done. So I think that's, that's also something pretty cool.
Todd : 40:43 And there's training in there that you don't even, it's not even like 100% tied to specifically the material collection itself. You threw in, you went a little above and beyond with the training there. That was good stuff.
Chad Ashley: 40:55 Yeah, there's some advanced technique stuff, uh, eh, specifically in Redshift and Arnold that I thought was a really good idea to put into this because I, I feel like anytime that we can show, uh, artists, how to get more out of the tools they have or get more out of their scene files, just get more out of less is always a good idea. So some of these advanced techniques that I show in the training will help you get more, not just out of the material collection itself, but just out of renders in general in a different way to think about materials and rendering.
Michael Maher: 41:31 I would also mention that if you are not in Greyscalegorilla Plus right now we did drop a YouTube tutorial about colors, uh, changing the color of, of textures and materials. So definitely go check that out as well.
Chad Ashley: 41:45 Oh yeah, that's right. I forgot about that.
Chad Ashley: 41:47 All right, so um okay. I don't, I don't even know, like I didn't even clear this with the team guys, but we're gonna we're gonna talk about a little bit about what's coming up at Greyscalegorilla Plus cause, that's I think the main question people have and rightly so. It's like, okay, everything in here, I understand I get the Redshift training and the Cinema 4D training and okay, now you got the material pack. But like if, if people are going to come in and join a membership, they really want to know like what's happening, what's happening in the future, what are the plans? And so maybe we can give him a little little taste of like what is happening in the next month or so on Greyscalegorilla Plus. What do you think Todd?
Todd : 42:23 Well, so, so yeah, I think so. So we, we just talked about how, you know, you can, if you're a Plus member, you have access to the Modern Surface Material Collection and, if you keep an eye on things, maybe later on this month you'll see another, uh really great material collection.
Nick Campbell: 42:40 Oh, do you mean like a really, um, a collection of materials that you would use like everyday maybe?
Todd : 42:46 Yeah,
Nick Campbell: 42:47 Is that what you're talking about?
Todd : 42:47 Probably. Probably everyday materials.
Nick Campbell: 42:51 Oh wow. Wouldn't it be cool if that was also included in Greyscalegorilla Plus?
Todd : 42:56 You know, Nick, I think it might be.
Todd : 42:59 This started to feel very uh
Chad Ashley: 43:01 This is getting very weird, you guys.
Todd : 43:03 We rehearsed this for hours beforehand. Um, but yeah
Chad Ashley: 43:07 Bad, like radio, like stories
Nick Campbell: 43:11 Listen, listen.
Todd : 43:11 Well Nick.
Nick Campbell: 43:11 I always wanted to do an infomercial guys, so like I'm just trying to get it to where like
Chad Ashley: 43:14 Oh god.
Nick Campbell: 43:14 There's got to be a better way! Um, so yeah, so that, so Everyday Material Collection, right?
Todd : 43:24 That's been uh, that's going to happen. And then um coming, coming up, coming up, keep an eye out. We got some really, really epic Houdini training on the way. There's a lot of people that have been asking me about Houdini and uh, we got, we got some of the best Houdini training in the biz I guarantee it coming up so so yeah, keep an eye out for that.
Chad Ashley: 43:46 Super stoked. Super stoked on that.
Nick Campbell: 43:48 Yeah, I know, Chad, you've, you've had your eye on the, uh, you've been looking at the training already. I know it's getting, getting closer to launch and it's obviously the, one of the number one questions I get too other than the dang PC is like, should I be learning Houdini? Um, and
Chad Ashley: 44:05 Yeah the, uh, sorry.
Nick Campbell: 44:05 Yeah go ahead
Chad Ashley: 44:05 I was just gonna say that like the, for those of you that are sort of aware of my journey with Houdini, that's like start and stopped at least three times uh, the last time I tried I was like, ah, this just isn't for me. I don't, I just don't know if this is ever going to be for me. It's just not clicking. And I started watching our Houdini stuff and I think this is the, this is the course that's gonna click for everybody. It's going to be the course that's like, Oh, I don't need to be afraid of it like this. This is actually a thing that I could do. I can do this. And I think that's really the powerful piece, the powerful thing to, to sort of take away from this new course.
Todd : 44:48 Yeah. I'm like, I'm like 10 layers of motion graphics knowledge away from being good at Houdini. And I feel like when I watch it, I'm like, you know what? I'm getting this. So I'm really excited about that one. That one's going to be, that one's going to be really epic for us.
Nick Campbell: 45:02 Yeah. Me, me too. And um, I've also, now that I have this working machine, I've been diving really deep into, um, uh, the Redshift training and just learning a lot more about that. So I'm actually taking some of my favorite pieces of what I've been learning in Redshift and pulling it out into like little individual clips. So there's super robust deep level training for Redshift inside Plus right now. But I'm, I'm working on a few videos that just like some of my favorite little things that, how Redshift works and how quickly you can use it. I think once I figured out that you can kind of set up some presets with, with um, Redshift and not have to start from scratch all the time, it kind of sped up my workflow. So I wanted to share that a little bit with the Plus members. I'm going to be recording that stuff in the next week. So, um, I think that's a little bit of a taste. I think. I think we obviously have a lot more, that's just like the next month or two in the future and probably more. Um, but, um, I think, I think we could, I think we can tease there, that far in the future for now, and then uh, as soon as we have other stuff.
Todd : 46:09 That, that's just a taste. There's more coming. We got lots of cool stuff already in the, in the works.
Nick Campbell: 46:15 Yeah. So and just to be clear, if you're already a member, you can go download the, the um, the new material collection right now and then just stay tuned for this stuff. We're gonna, you know, send out emails obviously as soon as the new training drops. Um, man I'm really excited about the Corzine training cause that, and that kind of looks like Houdini, what he's doing in there. But it's all built with cinema 4D tools, right?
Todd : 46:36 Yup.
Chad Ashley: 46:37 Yup.
Nick Campbell: 46:38 Oh man.
Todd : 46:38 A little bit of Octane, a little bit, a little bit of using our material collection, a little bit of cinema 4D. Yeah, it's uh, it's a good, good mix of things.
Nick Campbell: 46:46 All right. I, uh, I think we, I think we should, I think we should end like this. Chad, are you ready for this one? This is gonna be big. Are you prepared?
Chad Ashley: 46:54 Ok. Yeah, sure. Go for it.
Nick Campbell: 46:56 Now there's obviously huge news with, with Redshift. Um, now being owned by Cinema 4D and Maxon. Um, where are you on the, the kind of the, the render situation that's happening right now because we're obviously building training. We have, you know, Arnold in mind, we have Redshift in mind, and Octane in mind for, for Greyscalegorilla Plus, but you know, where, where are you these days on what renderer you're using on your, on your work?
Chad Ashley: 47:27 Uh, I'd say so. All of the, all of the Modern Surface Material Collection renders were done in Arnold. Uh, it's definitely my favorite and I've been testing, I'm lucky enough to be on the beta for Arnold 6.0, which I'm actually using in a lot of my stuff right now. Uh, and yeah, I mean, I, I don't know if they're, they're not over. I feel like every renderer has its own sort of pluses and minuses. And it really kind of depends on the work that you do. All the same stuff that we've sort of talked about and wrote blog posts about. But I will say that, uh, traveling to the different cities for the, uh, the Maxon 3D artist, uh, I'm going to forget the name again. I'll just say the tour, just call it the tour. And I would say that it's one thing that I've been hearing from a lot of different people is just this need to create content for ridiculous sizes.
Chad Ashley: 48:27 That's something that came up multiple times. People doing experiential design, experiential animations on giant screens that exist in uh public spaces. And I think a challenge that a lot of these GPU renderers have is being able to render these gigantic outputs. Whether or not they can even hold it in, in a video memory is, is, you know, a problem. And so I think that there's still a place for CPU rendering in a lot of people's workflows because it is a more sort of tried and true production tested method of rendering. You can throw anything at a CPU renderer, it's gonna, it's gonna chug through it. So I don't think that, and you know, with the, with the new stuff that uh, AMD is doing on the chip set side, it's definitely like a growing, it's still, it's still a thing that I think is a viable solution for rendering.
Chad Ashley: 49:24 So I'd say for my personal work, I'm using Arnold because I just absolutely love the way it looks. I love how predictable it is. I love the features. The speed is like if I have a thread ripper, so the speed isn't really that big of a deal. The GPU version, I'm seeing very good, uh, improvements on still not out of beta yet, but it's really getting there. And what I love about it is that I can switch back and forth from CPU to GPU, which is something that I don't think a lot of people really understand the, uh, the importance of that. So if you're at home, let's say on a really beefy GPU system and you're doing your look dev on the GPU version of a renderer and you're like, yeah, this is looking great and maybe you're a freelancer and you don't have a render farm, so you want to get this job done, now you have to render out let's say 500 frames, 2K, whatever the crazy sizes. Now you could do it locally, which is gonna just eat up all your time on your machine. Or you could try to throw it to a cloud.
Chad Ashley: 50:28 But a lot of cloud solutions, uh, the GPU versions of these, of these cloud solutions are kind of expensive and they also are a bit buggy, like GPU rendering is buggy. So imagine being able to say, okay, I'm going to render locally on my GPU, do all my cool look dev. And then when I'm ready to send it to a farm, I'm going to switch it to CPU and I'm going to render on let's say pixel plow using their, you know, crazy CPU farm. So now you just did like what? Not very many. If I'd say that maybe a Renderman is the only one that can truly do this. Actually I take that back. I think Cycles actually might be able to do this as well. But that's a really cool thing, right? I mean to be able to like switch and be able to choose what's gonna work best for your job, uh, when it comes to like getting it done. And I think that's a really cool thing.
Nick Campbell: 51:16 All right. That, see that sounds like the holy grail. I'm sure it won't end there either, but I want to, I wanted to kind of catch up on that because I heard a lot of people asking questions about that too during the, during in the Maxon tour is like what, what's Chad up to? I thought he was like all Redshift all the time. Let's go. And now I see he's doing Arnold. So I wanted to like get your thoughts on that because um, it's obviously we're still in a place where we're picking the right thing for the right job. Um, but I think we're all clear though, that there's like these three renders are still the major ones right now. Like Octane Arnold, Redshift, they all have their pluses and minuses, but that's still like the three that we should all look at as, as uh, as an artist. Would you agree?
Chad Ashley: 52:01 I would totally agree. I, I was just talking to Trevor who, uh, teaches our, our Redshift uh course with me and I think he's in the same boat. Like he's working on a job right now where he has shots in one particular job that are rendered in Octane, Redshift, and Arnold. Just because of like the nature of the shots. He's like splitting up the job into these different renderers. Now I know not everybody can afford to do that to own all three, but that is sort of like the best, if you can afford it, that is a really great way to approach it. Like, okay, which one is perfect for this particular shot? Strengths, weaknesses, that sort of thing.
Nick Campbell: 52:41 Yeah, that's, eh, that's really interesting. I think that's where, um, we're still getting a lot of questions. Like, what's the one I need? And then I could just not think of it again. And I don't think we're quite there yet. So, you know, that's, that's always, um, again, what, what we're learning and what we're researching here and trying to figure out and make that part as easy as we can make it. So, um, that's, that's exciting. I've, I've been looking at Arnold even more, um, specially since I did in my PC for three weeks. It's like what do I do now? I got my cute iMac here, but I got no GPU, so, um, yeah, obviously still not done. So that's, that's uh, you know, stuff I'll, I'll kinda keep asking you cause I know you've got your finger a little bit closer to all these renderers. You're on the beta on some of this stuff, so I appreciate you filling, filling us in, man.
Chad Ashley: 53:31 Yeah.
Nick Campbell: 53:31 Um, well I think, uh, you know, we, we can wrap up here a little bit. Uh, as always, I wish we had a little bit more time, so let's definitely do another one of these podcasts very soon. I did want to say, Todd, welcome to the Greyscalegorilla team. We're so excited.
Todd : 53:47 Thank you very much. I am excited as well.
Chad Ashley: 53:48 Whoop whoop.
Nick Campbell: 53:49 You got, you got through your first three weeks and got through your first podcast, I think. I think we're off to the races, buddy.
Todd : 53:54 All right.
Nick Campbell: 53:55 All right, well, uh, ladies, gentlemen, thank you as always. And, um, look, I, I, uh, I say this at the end of a lot of the podcasts. Um, we appreciate you listening. If you're listening and you want to help us out, get the word out, please give us a review over on iTunes. And if you're listening on YouTube, give us the thumbs ups or whatever YouTube wants you to do. They want you to ring a bell now. I dunno. Go do that stuff if you want to hear more. Uh, and just thank you. Thank you so much. And uh, we'll see you in another Greyscalegorilla podcast really soon. Bye everybody.